074: How the Enneagram Can Make You a Better Leader with Stephanie Woodward

Are you ready to shift patterns of behavior that are no longer serving you?

If you said yes, then this is the episode for you. In this episode, I was joined by Stephanie Woodward, certified leadership coach, Enneagram Practitioner and founder of Agency II Change.

Stephanie walks us through all 9 of the core Enneagram types and how they tend to show up in the world. You’ll learn about how the Enneagram can combat the issues that arise in your business and how learning about your Enneagram and your team’s Enneagrams can help make you a better leader.

What’s in this episode:

How fear can be a driver in leadership and management and the ripple effect this has
Challenges that arise in the workforce that Enneagram can help with
How she shares the Enneagram with clients without putting them into a box
An overview of the 9 core Enneagram types
The biggest transformations she’s seen when people learn about their archetype and Enneagram
How learning her Enneagram has helped her leadership

Connect with Stephanie:

Website | Instagram | LinkedIn

About Stephanie:

Stephanie is a certified leadership coach and Enneagram practitioner. She facilitates powerful, actionable conversations about personality styles, leadership and interpersonal dynamics through one-on-one coaching, group workshops and retreats. She works with individuals and teams who are looking for deeper insight and are ready to shift patterns of behavior that are no longer serving them.

Links:

The Enneagram Institute
Enneagram Evaluation
Kolbe Assessment
CP Enneagram Microtest
IQ 9 Report
CP Enneagram Academy Report
AGENCY

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EPISODE 74 TRANSCRIPT:

Download the Episode 74 Transcript

[00:00:00] Nicole Jackson Miller Welcome to The Scale Your Way podcast episode number 74. You’re listening to the Scale Your Way podcast, where we share simple, proven strategies just for done for you service based companies here, you’ll learn how to scale your business on your own terms so that you can have more time, money, create a bigger impact and a better life. I’m your host, Nicole Jackson Miller. Let’s dive into today’s episode. Hey, everyone, Nicole here and welcome back to the show. I’m excited today to be talking to you about leadership and specifically using an assessment called the Enneagram Assessment to be able to help you better lead yourself and lead your team to now. The Enneagram was actually something that I had the least experience with. As many of you know, I really love the Kolby assessment, especially when it comes to using it to work better with others. And I had heard so much from a lot of my clients around Enneagram that I wanted to bring in somebody into one of my programs to talk about Enneagram and leadership. And I now I’m bringing her on to the podcast. Her name is Stephanie Woodward and she is a certified leadership coach and Enneagram practitioner. And she facilitates powerful, actionable conversations about personality styles, leadership and interpersonal dynamics through coaching and workshops and retreats. And so what she does is works really well with individuals and team who are looking for deeper insight and ready to shift patterns of behavior that are no longer serving them. So if this is you, if you’re someone who knows that you may need to shift some ways that you show up in order to better serve others and are in a place where you’re growing your team, I know that you will love this episode, so let’s dive in.

[00:01:56] Nicole Jackson Miller That’s excellent. Yeah, and I completely agree. And I think this is where we have similar styles when it comes to coaching is really going back to the fact that everyone’s human. And that’s part of the reason why I started my business, because I started in television in a larger setting. And what I noticed, especially when it came to management, that a lot of times people were leading from this place of fear. And then what would happen is that they wouldn’t they would show up and something would happen. And because they were so afraid and because they were scared, they would act really terribly to the people that reported to them and know I was I would talk to the people that reported to them and kind of see how they were feeling and they would be upset and we would have conversations around. Well, I think it all boils down to that they’re afraid and that doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t make it right that they came and yelled at you and told you we were terrible at your work or whatever. But at the same time, like, if you can understand that they’re doing those things because they’re scared or because they have fear, it can shift it a bit. Do you do you see that happening?

[00:03:05] Stephanie Woodward I think that’s so interesting because, yes, I agree. Often it can be fear. And I’m sometimes not only they may not label it a threat. They may not even realize they’re doing it like they’re almost going on autopilot to that fear. And what’s driving that fear is so unconscious and it’s kind of in in a blind spot of theirs that before they know it, I just snapped my fingers there. You know, you go from something coming in and you’re automatically reacting to it out of an unconscious fear that you may not even be aware of.

[00:03:35] Nicole Jackson Miller Yes. Yes, totally. I love that it is unconscious and being able. I think that’s sometimes the first step is just having that awareness and then and then you’re able to actually do something about it. So I’m curious, when clients come to you, what are some of the patterns or behaviors that they want shifted so that I guess they would be that they are aware of what they want shifted? Does that make sense?

[00:04:02] Stephanie Woodward It does. So I will have two different types of clients that would come in to me. So either their company has decided, hey, we’re either doing a leadership program or we’re in the middle of doing some kind of review and we see an opportunity to further develop you as a leader. So sometimes people are volun-told coming to do some coaching with me and then I have others who have sought me out to say, hey, I’m looking to do some personal work, I’m looking to do some leadership development so they’ll seek me out so those two clients will look very different. So people coming in who have made the choice and self selected in will typically say to me, I’ve fed up this pattern, keeps showing up in my life like I’m, for example, playing small. I find that as soon as big opportunities come up for me, I’m either self sabotaging or I’m too scared to make that leap. And I’m I’m sick of it. I’m ready. I’ve showed up for coaching because I want to move past some of these patterns that keep showing up in my life. That would be the one type of client. The other client has perhaps been volun-told told to come to coaching. They maybe this might be their first step into personal development. So what I see there is kind of entering into that relationship gently because they might be getting feedback for the first time. They might be having a mirror held up to them for the first time to say, here’s how other people are perceiving you. And that’s where what you were just mentioning, that fear or whatever that pattern is or that reactivity style that’s showing up in their lives, that might be causing an issue in that interpersonal dynamic that might show up and it might be the first time they’re processing it, so I would say what can be tough for those individuals is blind spot work. So things that they didn’t even realize they were doing or didn’t realize the impact it was having on others or the team. And then we start to unpack that.

[00:05:52] Nicole Jackson Miller Interesting. Is that a little I mean, I’m sure you you lead so well in those conversations, but does it feel awkward at first if somebody is coming in and they’re not maybe used to getting feedback or this is the first time and now they’re thinking, oh, no, I have to sit down and talk about this, and I can imagine it might be a little awkward for them.

[00:06:13] Stephanie Woodward And I think this is probably one of my gifts as a nine. So we’ll we’ll talk more on the Enneagram in a little while. But I think one of my when I fully step into what I had and there are many shadow aspects of nine as well, and hopefully step into some of my super powers as a nine, I’m really good at putting people at ease and I’m good at space, space creation and space holding for people. So I would say again, I always go back to human, to human. Right. I’ve got this other person in front of me who might be facing something for the first time. So it’s not hard for me to tap into that empathy and to also just say, hey, it’s just the two of us in this conversation that’s really important to the work I do. I’m never I’m never debriefing people live in front of others. I’m always creating the space for us to have those one on one conversations first, to have those really those deeper conversations that you’re creating that relationship. And it’s all about space building and creating that psychological safety. For the other to say, first of all, I’ve had to face many things in my own life, I, I, I think at this point I’m probably a very nonjudgmental person because I’ve likely faced it or I’ve made a similar mistake or I’ve had a similar reactivity pattern. But I usually hold that in the back of my mind when I’m when I’m working with anyone.

[00:07:29] Nicole Jackson Miller That’s great. And so I’m curious when it comes to teams, because I do want to dove into the Enneagram and how it can help teams. What is a challenge or a problem that you see pop up that you think maybe learning more about this person’s Enneagram or the team Enneagrams would be helpful?

[00:07:52] Stephanie Woodward Yeah, I have a couple of examples that are specific to bite. Is that in the the first one can be around speed, speed of delivery. So sometimes you might have you might hear somebody say, gosh, why is why is Suzy moving so slowly on this project? She’s a bit of a she’s a bit of a stuck point. Right. We’re not making much progress because Susie’s really coming back to us with questions or being a bit of a negative Nellie. This is an example I’m thinking of that I’m working on with a client right now. So they this feeling that Susie is blocking the project, whereas Nancy is saying, I’m ready to go like I see the end line, I know where we’re headed, let’s go. And so depending on whether Susie or Nancy is running that team, so depending on who’s the leader out of those two, you can imagine they might favor a slower pace or they might favor a faster pace. And that can actually create, depending then on the objectives that have been set for that company or again, the desired pacing at the company that can create real issues. You can end up with Susie being seen as a bit of a roadblock, or you could see Nancy as perhaps being a bit too flippant and moving too quickly, depending on how your organization views pace. So this example put through the lens of the Enneagram, you will have certain personality archetypes that are going to pay more attention to that detail or they’re going to raise the alarm bells. They’re like those natural risk register individuals. They’re the natural disaster scenario planners, and it’s a real super power and gift of theirs. And then you’ve got others that are very good at seeing the end point. They maybe don’t like to spend a lot of time then then taking that to a deeper level, but they can see all kinds of parts that you can take. So you can imagine if an organization or a team recognizes those skills and say, hey, there’s a time and place to really analyze risk and there’s a time and a place to create that idea generation and move quickly towards that end point. And to value both of those styles, it can enrich the experience. And a company technically needs both of those both of those sets of attributes. But it can really create conflict if it’s not managed mindfully.

[00:10:01] Nicole Jackson Miller And it seems that it’s really shifting it from being a point of tension or a problem to really both of those ways of taking action, are strengths. It’s just what is appropriate for the specific situation.

[00:10:15] Stephanie Woodward Absolutely. And I think once people have an understanding of their Enneagram type, they learn, oh, that’s Suzy SuperPower’s. I’m going to I really want to listen to her on this, because I know she’s adding this into her perspective. You can start to listen very differently when you’ve got the common language of, hey, I know this is this person’s superpower or I know this might be this person’s blind spot. So there’s different ways you can use it in a team setting.

[00:10:39] Nicole Jackson Miller Amazing. So what is the Enneagram for those of those who are listening, who have no idea what this is or maybe have heard about it, but just haven’t? That was where I was at before you came in to do the guest expert workshop session. I was like, I’ve heard of Enneagram. I know what my number is, but I don’t really know what to do with this. Like, what is it?

[00:10:59] Stephanie Woodward Yes, great question. It is a set of nine personality archetypes and it gets a little more complex than that. So to keep it at a very high level for the first answer to this question of all of those nine types, you can subdivide each of those types into one of three subtypes. So in in essence, there are twenty seven different Enneagram types, but nine core nine core personality archetypes that are represented in the Enneagram. What makes the Enneagram different from other personality based tools? And so many people will be familiar. There’s a number of different tools out there. There are a number of different personality assessments and I never put down any of those other assessments. I am a big fan of personality profiling and I’ve done a number of them. What I find different about the Enneagram and what I love about it is it’s not about, OK, you’ve now found your type. This is your type. Here you are. Now accommodate for it, work around it. But this is who you are. So as if it’s putting you in a box, the Enneagram does not do that. So you’re not being placed in a type nine box. It’s saying, hey, if you’re a type nine, here’s the profile of a type nine. Here are the personality tendencies. Here are the kind of blind spots. Here are the challenges. Here are some of the core drivers for a type nine. Now you get to be a choice. So the Enneagram represents an entire system. And once you really start working with it, it’s a system to actually break free from your personality archetype so that you can start to integrate some of those other types, some of the attributes of the others, so that you can round yourself out or break free of some of the personality patterns that you might have seen coming up throughout your lifetime. So I’ll pause there, because I could geek out on this for you and talk for a very long time on what it is.

[00:12:48] Nicole Jackson Miller Yeah, yeah. I know that’s so helpful. And I think I love that you said that it doesn’t put you in a box. I remember something that I think is fun to do is I try and have my husband take all of the assessments that I learn about in business and he’s like, I hate doing this. I hate being put in a box. And so it’s just really refreshing for you to share that. Because one thing most listeners know, I’m a huge Kolbe assessment person and it’s not a personality test like Enneagram and some others. It’s a little bit different. But one thing that I do hear people saying is like, oh, you’re such a QuickStart or you’re such a fact finder, you’re such a this. And sometimes on the receiving end, it can feel a little bit like, well, it feels uncomfortable. And so I’m curious for you, when you talk about Enneagram and you share share this with your clients, how do you share this information about their profile without them feeling like or like manifesting maybe some of the stuff into their lives or maybe allowing them to not feel like they’re being put into a box?

[00:13:56] Stephanie Woodward Absolutely. Well, the first piece or this is really understanding that it is about core motivation. And I’ll take us on a slight tangent sideways before I come back to that particular question, just to say it would be very hard, even if you read the descriptions of all nine types for you or I to walk around to say, oh, so-and-so is a type five, so-and-so is a type one, none of us can identify. We can we can take an educated guess that those of us that are trained in the firm could certainly say, hey, based on talking to you, here’s what I think your type is, but it is really about your core motivation. So typically, when someone really resonates with their type, once they’ve read about it, they’ll say, oh, that driver, that’s psychological attribute. That really is what’s running the show. So it’s a motivator rather than saying it’s a behavior. So I will always be able to say, this is what’s driving you. This is what other people may or may not see. Other people see the behavior. So when you mentioned fear, for example, other people might see someone behaving in a way where they’re yelling at others or they’ll see someone else become very risk averse, or they will they will see a behavior that may be attributed to fear. So in Enneagram language, that fear can show up in many different ways. Some of the most powerful seeming Enneagram types who show up with behavior that would look very powerful. It’s actually fear underlying that. So others may not know that. They may see, oh, this person is strong and fearless when actually the motivator, the reason why they’re showing up that way is from a place of fear. So when I’m working with individuals, we start there, we start we start at the core driver to really talk about how true is this for you. And I will have some people once they see that report, you say stuff, were you were you walking around my house with a camera? Were you filming me? How do you how have you seen this part of myself that I keep pretty well hidden? And that’s what I think comes up with the Enneagram because it’s looking at what others may not know or see, because it’s the driver. It’s that underlying driver.

[00:15:54] Nicole Jackson Miller That makes so much sense. And then I can see how once you start working with someone and talking to them about it, they probably feel very soon, maybe even for the first time ever. Right? Because it’s like, yeah, you’re getting to their core.

[00:16:09] Stephanie Woodward Yes, absolutely. Sometimes they can feel it. It can feel confronting in a great way. And it can also feel scary. Right. To go. So, again, it’s it’s creating those spaces with teams and with individuals to to do the work.

[00:16:22] Nicole Jackson Miller So you tell me when it be I would love to share with the audience a little bit about the different archetypes, but I want to make sure that that would be the most helpful. Do you think I know that you are really into this and can share a lot? So do you think going into each of the personality archetypes just a little as a description would be helpful? Or do you think describing something else about it would be more helpful for those listening?

[00:16:49] Stephanie Woodward I absolutely what I think that’s a great idea to go through. I will put a big caveat to say I hinted at it when I talked about what the Enneagram is, and I said there’s nine core types and then within each type there are subtypes. So I will say we would never have time today to go through all of these subtypes so I can go through the nine core types. But just for everybody to know that the subtypes within each type are quite nuanced. So it might sound like I’m generalizing a little bit as I go through the nine types and just know that once you explore this at the level of subtype, it might it might resonate a little more closely or it’ll give you a little more nuance.

[00:17:25] Nicole Jackson Miller Perfect. All right. Take us through. So I love Stephanie has already come in and taught me about Enneagram, but I’m just excited to listen in again. So please educate us all.

[00:17:39] Stephanie Woodward So I’m going to go through it. I’m going to I’m going to name them by their number type rather than using a label, because different Enneagram schools use different labels for each of the nine types. And so as not to be confusing, I’m just going to go through them as numbers. So are type ones as again, a rule of thumb or a bit of a generalization? Are type ones tend to be the rule followers, so they will be particular about standards. This may be someone who will point to a code of conduct or would point to rules, a challenge they may have, they may think in black and white thinking, which can be really great when there are standards and rules that need to be followed. And it can be challenging sometimes for them to work in the great. So many of the ones I talked to will not their heads as I say this to say, yes, give me give me a great rule and a love of love to kind of follow that or give me the guidelines that I’m working with within. So they like they like those parameters of that would. That’s a generalization for our type ones. As those rule followers. Our type twos, they will often be very relationship oriented. They are often called the helper. I’d like to add in the strategic helper and that’s a line from Enneagram Academy. They will they will talk about them being strategic helpers. So this can be the individual who will always offer to do that little bit extra work is really looking to please so they can end up feeling like they’re doing everything for everybody else before taking care of themselves. Or they can tend towards people pleasing. That would be more of our type twos. And the reason I call that strategic helping, they’ll often want something in return, even if that something is just recognition for having done the role. So your type twos may get really upset if they’ve worked really hard and haven’t haven’t received recognition for that work, so often, I’ll often talk to leaders about that who have type twos on their team. For a type three type threes are very goal oriented and type threes can can often appear to be a prototype of an ideal employee in North America. And I do say North America specifically, they’re very goals oriented. They’re going to hit that goal no matter what, and they often will lose sight of themselves. So they tend to be shapeshifters and by shape shifter. What I mean by that is they will adapt to fit the situation. So they might be they might seem like a bit of a chameleon. Depending on where you see them showing up, their personality might appear slightly differently or they might behave slightly differently. They might dress differently. So this kind of shape shifting chameleon attribute to the point where sometimes they can lose touch with even, they may say, I don’t really know which of these which of these shapes shape shifts are really made. So that can sometimes be some development work that a three might want to focus on. Kind of who who are they without that without that goal or work identity present. Type fours are really comfortable with big emotion, whether it’s their own or whether it’s other people’s, so they can tend to hold space for emotion. They tend they tend to be creatives. They can sometimes I would say that the most at risk of being stereotyped as being moody. And that is not necessarily true, I would say. And so I will put in a bit of a PSA here for type four is that they are comfortable with the wide range of emotion. And I would say in our society, not all of us are comfortable with the roller coaster ride that is being human and having all of these emotions. And so you will often have type fours in workplaces be told they are too emotional.

[00:21:14] Nicole Jackson Miller Wow.

[00:21:14] Stephanie Woodward And so that’s something I really want to highlight for the audience here, because I think it can be a real disservice to force. So I’ll pause a I feel like it’s up to us to jump in there with.

[00:21:24] Nicole Jackson Miller But yeah, I mean, I want one of my core values and beliefs is that feelings belong at work. And so it’s just interesting. I’ll say feelings belong at work. Bad behavior does not. Right? Because we all have feelings, but at the same time, we need to be responsible for how we show up and behave. But it’s just interesting with you sharing that people are too emotional. And I think also as a woman who also just had a baby and has gone through a range of hormones, I just know any time someone is pointing out being too emotional, it just gets under my skin a little bit. So that’s really that’s interesting. But that also is an archetype.

[00:22:05] Stephanie Woodward Absolutely. And I would say to to your point there around feeling your feelings and it’s not about bad behavior is not welcome to the workplace. And I think it’s bang on. I completely agree with what you said where and this is the unconscious conscious. So once you are aware of, oh, I have a, I’m comfortable with this big wide range of emotions, how I present those emotions or how I speak into them, being able to pause and consciously choose your next step. Righ? Being conscious of that, your behavior and emotion would be very would be very separate

[00:22:38] Nicole Jackson Miller before you continue. I mean, I’m just listening to the different types and I’m like, oh yeah, that’s me. Oh, yeah, that’s me. And I know that I’m a type nine, so I would mention different subtypes and everything. But for those listening who might find a little bit of themselves in each of these, is that something that’s common?

[00:22:57] Stephanie Woodward What’s really funny, when you said you’re a type nine, typically when someone comes to me and says, I feel like I have a little bit of me and all of the nine types, they’re usually a nine.

[00:23:04] Nicole Jackson Miller Of course. Well, there we go.

[00:23:07] Stephanie Woodward Find out if you are having a hard time pinpointing or sometimes if none of them feel very resonant, it could be because once you start looking at it, the subtype level, it will become very, very clear and again, to get to that underlying motivation. So I with some of these descriptions, I’m speaking a little more towards the behaviors and how it presents listeners that are that are listening and think about what feels the most real for you most of the time, like what would really be driving your behavior here.

[00:23:39] Nicole Jackson Miller I love that. All right. I will let you continue. That’s really great information.

[00:23:43] Stephanie Woodward And you want me to keep going right through five through. Please feel free to interject if you have any follow up questions as I go as I go through these.

[00:23:50] Nicole Jackson Miller Absolutely.

[00:23:51] Stephanie Woodward OK, so we’ll move into our type five and type fives will often be described as aloof. And so I also put in a bit of a PSA for our type five where we just came from. The type forest type fours can often be misconstrued as too emotional. Our type can sometimes be seen as too aloof. They do have a lot going on inside, but they can appear to be a bit less emotional, so a bit devoid of emotion in how they can present. So they tend to be very analytical. They tend to be very fact oriented. So they’re looking to collect data and they can be very analytical and that can sometimes trump a focus on emotions or people. So you can imagine if you have a type four and a type five on the same team, you can imagine there that there might be again, once you recognize the different perspectives, there can be a real appreciation for those two. But they can also buttheads, if they don’t understand one another or don’t have that appreciation. So moving on to our type sixes, these are our natural risk assessors. So they are very comfortable seeing risk. They’re very comfortable identifying worst case scenario planning. So if you’re ever doing crisis planning in your company, success can be a great addition to that team because they naturally are able to think of what might what might transpire and making plans around those different items. So they’re going to see the ways things may go wrong, which can be a great attribute. And one thing here I’d like to say about the sixes doesn’t mean that they’re expecting you to necessarily change course with a six they just want everyone to be aware of what those risks are. They might just want to work through those scenarios and make sure that it’s properly thought through. So listen, for that lens, when you’ve got a six on your team, that it’s just that comfort in wanting to explore the different scenarios that may play out. Next are our type sevens. Sometimes I joke I have a lot of seven clients and they will self describe as shiny object syndrome. So they can be great visionaries. They can be great in that brainstorming meeting. They don’t always want to. They don’t always want to fit with that deeper level of detail and know that I will have some kids that might write back to me and say they disagree. And of course I’m generalizing, but there can be this tendency to say, oh, I’ve just come up there in their excitement and in their enthusiasm. Well, I’ve got another great idea. I’ve got another great idea. So there can be this tendency to move on before before what’s being done is complete. And this can go across different areas of their lives. And again, this can be amazing energy to have on your team idea generation and visioning. Right. But you need to have that appreciation for what what that individual’s strengths are. And they need to they need to recognize to where their area of challenge or development might be as well. And that’s the thing for all of these types as we go through them. For our type eight, type eight can be very, very assertive. They can be the ones that might feel very comfortable being direct on the team or giving that feedback. And I’ll I’ll often hear that again. There can be there’s a bit of a myth or a bit of a misconception with each that they are aggressive or that they’re bullies. So people will sometimes say, oh, so-and-so is an eight, they must be a bully. Not true at all. So again, we have here an archetype that can be really comfortable and complex. They don’t shy away from difficult conversations. They don’t have an issue speaking into their opinion. They don’t have an issue being directed, assertive, and that can sometimes be misconstrued or others who may be an archetype that isn’t as comfortable with conflict, maybe a little more sensitive to an assertive approach. So, again, once you’re around that table with that team and you know, hey, so-and-so is just really comfortable having conflict and so-and-so is a little less comfortable having these conflict conversations, you can start to empathize with one another. And where you’re both coming from.

[00:27:45] Nicole Jackson Miller I know you’ll get into type nine next, but I wish I was a little bit more of an eight.

[00:27:51] Stephanie Woodward I as well. And if we were to talk about wings, you’re your wing would be an eight. One of your wings is an eight. And so we can we can always talk about that today or in more detail another time. But it’s very interesting that you said that because that’s exactly as we head now into our into our type nines. There is the strong desire for harmony, for peace keeping, very relationship oriented, very mindful of the different perspectives around the table. The downfall for our nines is they can sometimes get a bit too caught up in consensus building. They can get too caught up in making sure everybody’s OK before moving into action. They’re really craving that harmony and they may avoid conflict. They may avoid conflict to almost to their own detriment. So that would be our nines. Now, one thing I do want to add in, and that was a very quick run through of all the nine tapes, speaking at a very, very high level. There’s also a culture overlay and gender overlay. There are all kinds of overlays that you can have influence from whatever type your parents happen to be, where that might where that might influence you. Individuals that identify as female might feel that there was a lot of pressure to abandon some of their eight more assertive, aggressive core personality tendencies and go a little bit quieter or take on different different communication styles based on that. So, again, when we look at the complexity of the Enneagram, there are all these really interesting overlays that can come over the archetypes as well and how they play out.

[00:29:25] Nicole Jackson Miller Wow. OK, so what has been I’m curious, what has been the biggest transformation that you’ve seen with people, with teams who have learned their archetype, worked with you using the Enneagram? What has been the biggest transformation when it comes to the way that they work?

[00:29:51] Stephanie Woodward Great question. So I would say a thread of the biggest transformations I’ve seen, and these are individuals who have committed to doing the work. They’ve really started with themselves, even when it’s when it’s a team, a team project that we’ve been working on and a team development program. Each individual has taken accountability for really understanding their type and how they’re showing up. So they’re moving from that unconscious to conscious. And when teams really do that, what I see is it goes from I mean, I’ve had team members that that never spoke to each other who were like, I cannot be in the same room as so-and-so or I will not be on that project if so-and-so was on that project because we just can’t work together. Constant conflict that completely disappears because the conversation shifts from. I have to. I have a really human understanding of where this other individual is coming from. So now that I know that now that I’m aware of what is driving this between the individual, being aware of it for themselves and their colleagues being aware of it, it transforms that dynamic. You can naturally show up with more empathy. You can naturally show up from a much more constructive mindset to approach problems, challenges, projects, anything that you have on the table.

[00:31:01] Nicole Jackson Miller That’s incredible. And yeah, and I can imagine from everyone having an understanding and being able to use that understanding to work better together, because I can see I can see it being helpful from an individual perspective. If you were coaching one person on a team. But I, I think that there would be an even bigger benefit to working with each member of the team so that they could bring that understanding to the table when working with each other. Like for me being a type nine and I’ve had situations in the past working with someone and I don’t know if they’re a type 8 or not, but like I know the behavior of them being, like, more direct and aggressive and and feeling a bit like bullied in situations and being like, I just can’t work with this person. But looking back, saying like, OK, well, maybe this is actually they’re like their strengths. And and it’s interesting, too, because even as you were going through that description, like, I actually obviously like parts of that and wish that I could be a pull in more of that into the way that I work. So I just think it’s interesting. I think it’s just an interesting insight into the Enneagram and how we can actually use it in these situations.

[00:32:14] Stephanie Woodward Absolutely. And as it as a system, we spoke briefly about those things for for you taking on a little more, remembering that for an eight, a nine is their wing. So them taking on more of the higher attributes of the nine and the nine taking on some higher attributes of the eight. Right. Is how you will both move on your personal development journey if you choose to. If you start scooping in some of those elements, the higher attributes of that wing. So the eight perhaps learning to take into consideration a little bit more of those those other opinions and those other perspectives and the nine learning to really speak in to their opinion when it’s called for and being more direct when it’s needed. So as both of you, especially in a team, as you both work your your system, your Enneagram system, you start to take in those attributes.

[00:33:01] Nicole Jackson Miller Yeah. And you’re a type nine as well. So what has I’m curious, like what has your biggest insight been from, like, learning about your type. Yeah. What’s been kind of like I guess a transformation is a transformation that you’ve gone through, learning more about your Enneagram types.

[00:33:19] Stephanie Woodward So when I was a leader of teams for me, the big I was going from OK, I’ve taken in the perspective it’s now time to take action. So getting much more discerning on when when I had gathered enough input from the team and now it was time for me as the leader of the team to make a decision or to make the call, knowing that it may not please everybody. Right. So that was a big part of my personal development journey that you that you can’t you can’t make everyone happy. It’s not possible. And that really hurt me as a nine. That would keep me up at night knowing knowing that I couldn’t please everybody, but also knowing that if you drag out that decision or you’re not taking action, you’re also creating you’re also creating blocks for the company or blocks for the team or confusion for the team. So that was a big worry for me and my journey.

[00:34:01] Nicole Jackson Miller Yeah, OK. Yeah. And I mean, because I’m also a type nine, I’m just like over here nodding. I feel like so I feel so understood talking to you. And I’m sure a lot of people, regardless of their archetype, also feel like they’ve resonated with some of these types. So if somebody is looking to actually take this assessment, where do they go to take the assessment?

[00:34:23] Stephanie Woodward So my favorite online test that is free and takes less than five minutes to complete. And it’s only two questions. It is recently launched and it is the CP Enneagram microtest. And if you’d like, I can send you a link so you can you can post that for readers or for listeners if they’d like to access it. So that way, if you’ve never done it before, that will give you a very quick pulse check on what your type might be if you’re looking to go more in depth. I love both the IQ nine report and I love the CP Enneagram Academy report. So those will give you reports that range from 20 to 40 pages and give you much more in-depth information. So those but they’re obviously ones that you would pay for.

[00:35:06] Nicole Jackson Miller That’s great. That’s great. Yeah. We’ll include those links inside of the show, notes for everyone. And so before we wrap up, I would love for you to share what it means for you to scale your way.

[00:35:20] Stephanie Woodward Mhm. I love this question. So I would say having built my business over the last few years, I’m taking this question to mean for for how I’m scaling my business in my own way. And I think moving on our theme of fear that we talked about a few times in this conversation when it can feel like, oh, I’ll just go as a as a solo business owner, I’ll take that next client. Right. Or this client has come to me, I’ll take them on. I think what’s been important to me in scaling my own way is and especially in the work that I do, getting a commitment, knowing that that client is committed to doing the work. They’re committed to really looking at words and doing the personal development work. So being choosy about my clients, even in a time where we’ve all just gone through a pandemic. Right. Knowing that knowing that I really want to scale and work with individuals that are ready to care about their people, care about their teams and do their own personal work. So I think that would be what’s important to me living in those values. That’s my version of scaling my business in my own way.

[00:36:21] Nicole Jackson Miller Incredible. Stephanie, where can people find you if they want to learn more about your work?

[00:36:26] Stephanie Woodward Absolutely. But I hang out most on Instagram @agencytochange. You can also find me on LinkedIn and to check out anything that I’ve talked about. A little more depth head on over to the website agency to change dotcom.

[00:36:40] Nicole Jackson Miller Thank you so much for coming on the podcast today, Stephanie. It’s just it’s been incredible to learn more about you and talk about leadership and talk about how the Enneagram can help all of us learn a little bit more about ourselves and then also see how we might be able to use this tool to better work with our teams to just really appreciate you taking the time to be here.

[00:37:00] Stephanie Woodward Well, thank you so much. I’ve loved this conversation. Our time has flown. It’s been just great. Thank you so much.

[00:37:06] Nicole Jackson Miller All right, everyone, I will see you next week. Thanks so much for tuning in, if you are ready to stop settling for being a done for you service provider and really fully step into the role of agency owner and CEO and lead a team that you love that just delivers excellent client results, then you have to check out my new program called AGENCY, which is specifically designed to remove you from at least 50 percent of client delivery in 12 months or less, so that you can have the time and the space to be able to run your business and, you know, to take a tech free vacation, too. That’s always nice, right? So if you’re interested in learning more, head over to NicoleJacksonMiller.com/apply. You can learn more about the program. If it looks like a good fit, then apply. And we will send you before our call. We’ll send you a free business assessment that will really explain more about the framework that we use to remove you from client delivery. And it’ll give you an assessment that you can take to really show where you are now and where you’re going. We’ve had so many people get a lot of insight just from taking that assessment, so I can’t wait for you to check it out.